Being Bartholomew: August 2009

This was a discussion recently posted on facebook, by my dear husband Lee. I hope you read it, and come away having learned something.

Edited 10:00pm 8/12:
I have given one of the posters privacy as requested. The other poster I have given the initials of NR. I will continue to post comments as received.

Edited 4:30pm 8/14:
More comments have been added. Also here is an interesting article about a possible solution for our Healthcare problem.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/14/news/economy/health_care_solution.fortune/

Lee M Bartholomew
Thinks the government has no right to tell me what is best for me, it is my job to tell them what is best not visa-versa. And go ahead and follow Obama and report my E-mail to That whitehouse e-mail address like he asked, so he can gather his list of... dissenters. I am willing to hang for my Countrymen, are you? Or do you think patriotism is overrated. If so, then get out of my country.

Travis Hawkley
I agree, that is why they are called public servants and are chosen by us. And what's this about the e-mail address reporting? I had not heard that and frankly it sounds a bit ominous. Can you provide a link of some variety to that story?

Lee M Bartholomew
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/10/health-reform-protests-obama-say-media/

Lee M Bartholomew
Ok that one it is just mentioned in the first paragraph, I am still looking for the original release

Lee M Bartholomew
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/07/white-house-collect-fishy-info-health-reform-illegal-critics-say/

Nathan Brockway
I would hang next to you, if it meant my country would be free from all opressors. Obama can have my email as well I think he will go down as the president that destryoed America. Yeah I said it and I don't care what anyone thinks. Go ahead put me on your list and do what you want to me. I just want to remind you I believe in the second ammendment so I will take a few of obama's goon squad with me.

A R Chase Jr
I am with you guys, give me liberty or give me death!! Let us pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor to reestablish a country free of tyranny and oppression! We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

A R Chase Jr
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Lee M Bartholomew
prudence dictates then that we should suffer while our system turns from a self governing one, to one governed by a class of elitists who think that they know what is best for us? I think that the time to act is now. We cant wait for our children's children to fight the battles we were to afraid to fight.

Rachel Charter Diegel
Some people think that I am nuts for not trusting the government. I am glad to see that there are others who think the same as I do!

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
We couldn't trust bush or any of them and I honestly think people should calm down and take a look at the big picture. None of us make over 250k a year so we would all get free health care. So what if we need to stay in town now we don't have to be controled by insur companies. Fact is we are all being controled somewhere in the health department. Oh and yes I voted for mc cain.

Lee M Bartholomew
But, I dont want free health care, I dont even use my insurance that I pay 5800 a year for, because it is cheaper to just pay out of pocket for visits than to go to their doctors and pay co-pays. I refuse to take welfare, I love Cinderellaman where he goes back to the welfare office and pays back the money he got when he could. When you take ...something from the government, you take something from ME. and it is against everything I beleive in. I refuse to take free samples at the store, because I want cheap goods and services, and things that increase costs are wasteful, and I will not be involved in teaching my children to take anything for free. Work, for by the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat... Capitalism works...even ... especially in healthcare.

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
That is pridefull that you would not take medicare if your family needs it. My childrens are all on it and it has been very nice to have. We have also been on food stamps before cause I didn't make enough. I have also recieve Grants for education to help. I am sorry but Christ taught those who give are bless and if there is no one to accept then we can't give to eachother and if we are not going to give to eachother then we are not following Christ. I have no prob what so ever with someone who makes millions a year to give a higher percentage to help the American people. I love this country and I think its time for the greed to start giving to the needy.

A R Chase Jr
Lee--Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes...you misunderstand my point...the destruction of our freedoms and the enslavement of our people to Government run programs (such as healthcare), are NOT light and transient causes...and we therefore should NOT be afraid of this fight and DEFINITELY not leave this to our children's children to correct!!

Lee M Bartholomew
Most of my friends agree with you **, so I want you to know that I value my friendship with you more than this disagreement.. however this is my argument and I will not back down. You want to take this religious? lets go... I too believe that those that have should help the have nots. However making it compulsory is wrong. That is someone else' plan, to equalize everything, remove choice. It is my right to use my resources to help those in need, not to have that which I earn through education, sacrifice and work stolen from me and re-distributed through wasteful government social programs. This will be my salvation, knowing that I helped others with what I have, not that I had money taken from me so thereby I participated in the net helping of my brothers. I can do more with $1,000 than the government could do with $100,000, so don't go telling me that just because I don't want to steal from the rich and give to the poor that I am not following Christ. My thoughts.

A R Chase Jr
**--you are naive to believe that if you make less than 250k per year you won't be paying for this. AND...this is a matter of freedom! Do you want the government to decide when your child gets medical treatment? Are you willing to wait six months for an MRI when you need it? Look a Canada's health care system, it's a nightmare...that's what you have to look forward to...that and 70% tax rates!You have been programmed to believe that if someone makes a lot of money, they are greedy and selfish...how can you say that? So, if you make $30,000 a year, should you pay more for a gallon of milk than someone who makes $20,000 a year? Also, Christ taught that we should give to the poor, not to the government!

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
Ok this is true we should choose what our money goes toward but the prob is not people like you its people who lives in million dollar homes like for example tiger woods or brad pitt. Or now Eli Manning. Its rediculos that people need so much money to play a game. Or act on tv. Please understand i meant nothing toward you but the topic on all this I believe is out of proportion and there is no reason to be scared of change.

A R Chase Jr
Chris, you can't judge like that...it doesn't matter if you make 10,000 or 10,000,000 a year. The government has no place telling someone what to do with their money. Let people be free to choose to do with it what they want. Only in America can we have such opportunities to earn millions of dollars. If you were Tiger Woods and spent the countless hours training, traveling, and honing your skills to be the best in the world at what you do, that the government should then come in and steal what you have earned and give it to some hack on a public course who plays once a year? If you take a class at school and earn an 'A', should the teacher give you a 'C' so that the guy who flunked the class could get at 'C' as well?

Lee M Bartholomew
WHAT!!! The uber-wealthy in America do more good than you can imagine!--and would do far more if they had all their money at their disposal. Imagine Jon Huntsman Sr. and his cancer research center under a program where 70% of his income went to the wasteful government programs. Where would that leave the thousands of people who have been cured through it. ---IN LINE WAITING FOR STANDARD OLD TECHNOLOGY TREATMENTS. and dying. Tax the poor the wealthy know how to do good with their money. (unfortunately I will never get elected on that platform since the wealthy and intelligent make up such a small portion of our society.)

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
Good point roy but still I just came up with the solution. Doctors should just charge less and no healthcare hows that lol.

A R Chase Jr
In all seriousness, the health care problems in our country cannot be fixed by government intervention...The best way to reduce costs is to pass Tort reform and make plaintiffs who file frivolous lawsuits bear the burden of costs for defendants legal counsel. This would drastically reduce malpractice insurance premiums and allow doctors to charge less for their services.Also, Chris, you make a good point, allow Doctors to charge what they want without government interference. If a family doctor wants to charge $70 a month for unlimited visits by a patient, let him!

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
Wow i don't know about you but i go once maybe twice a year.

Lee M Bartholomew
but 70 a month, is much less than the 5800 a year which I pay.---and seems reasonable to me. Without insurance in the prescription drug market, the actual market would decide the cost in stead of the semi-social insurance program that we have now. I propose in stead of a single payer program, or an HMO a 300,000,000 payer program. seems better to me.

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
I got a ? did anyone have a prob with the no child left behind act?

Lee M Bartholomew
Yes , I did. I still do, every time I see a PBS show funded by a grant through the no child left behind act...what does cartoons have to do with social education?

Shon M Schmidt
Lee, Great arguments. I am thankful for welfare for those who truely need it. If Chris is one of those, than God bless you. I hope you get what you need. The problem is that those in true need almost never get help because of the 95% who are just abusing the system ,I qualify for welfare on 2 different disabilities (no I don't mean my looks and my spelling) I refuse to take the money because I am still able to work. If your in a wheelchair, you can still work on the phone.....

Travis Hawkley
One issue in my opinion with No Child Left Behind is that teachers and administrators spend valuable time with students who do not desire to be there or to learn. Do I think they should not try...of course not, but they should not be penalized or fired if they do not meet some ambiguous standard set by someone who has probably not set foot in a the classroom since they graduated high school. By government intervening as they have, truly brilliant students are only producing mediocre results because the standard is so low to reach down to those deemed "left behind". Most children want to be amazing and succeed in something and they should be given opportunities to show their true skills, not perform to some underinflated level. Our society will not progress with mediocrity (aka No Child Left Behind), but with the dreams and ambitions of students who want more than anything to change the world and make it better for everyone.

Shon M Schmidt
We need to stop giving welfare to illeagle alliens. No health care, No Food Stamps, Nothing!! They are destroying our country. If they come here leaglly and they need help, we should do what we can to help them get back on their feet.Utah has the low unemployment and it pays the lowest amount of time for unemployment. When you don't enable people, they become able themselves.

*Name Hidden for Privacy*
Its all govt and that one actually makes me sad cause they cut out recess time and now there is talk about PE which ticks me off. all these kids being diagnose a.d.d when they just needs to burn energy.

Lee M Bartholomew
The education system blows, Our kids used to (in UT) be in a great charter school, where they learned spanish and english from kindergarten. Carson Loved math, and both my kids were the top of their class. The school relied heavily on support from parents, and each teacher had a full time assistant. they had a modern computer lab, library, and went on regular meaningful field trips. The lunches were very healthy and diverse, I even saw them serving jicama sticks one day. They ran on the same budget per kid that the normal public schools do, but My kids flourished. In Ohio, they are middle of the class, and are not growing to their potential. They no longer love school, or their education. My $0.02= break up the school districts and give all that money to the schools, which would be run by a board or parents, like a charter school. the last thing my child needs to get ahead is another administrator.

Lee M Bartholomew
amendment: board of volunteer parents

Jeff Viola
I'm a capitalistic pig.....Oink!! Oink!! Wow, this has been fun to read through. My Suggestion - If you want the American people to care more for their fellow citizen stop all public forms of welfare, return the money back to the people so they can help one another. Years ago neighbors would help neighbors, families would help families, church would help more. Today we stand back and say they will be helped by the government. We are less incline to help and we have lost the desire to watch over our brothers and sisters because "Big Brother" is doing it for us. This form of government steals these Christ like attributes from us.

Health Care - Can someone tell what country has successfully implemented a national health care plan AND have improved the quality of medicine AND kept taxes under 50%.

Lee M Bartholomew
fantastic, Jeff. Thanks

Lee M Bartholomew
No child left behind forgets the fact that we need burger flippers and factory workers and unskilled labor in our workforce, why spend all our money overeducating kids who will never be more, and put our focus on kids who really could excell. --I got left behind by the education system, and I turned out OK, well......

Travis Hawkley
I also liked your suggestion Jeff. I am currently reading the book " The Real America" by semi-libertarian Glenn Beck, in which he advocates something similar. He posits that the Real America, filled with Real Americans, is a place where government does little more than provide defense and other simple things, mainly because citizens do it for one another. This sort of society would mean that insurance companies would not be able to take advantage of their clients because doctors would offer better prices out of a sense of duty to their fellow citizens. Court cases based on phony claims or ridiculous ones, such as coffee being too hot, would be replaced with a sense of personal responsibility (i.e. "I am an idiot for spilling the coffee on myself.") Capitalism would be a system where not only would the government not interfere but people would get rich and prosper because of their love of people and satisfying the needs of that people, not from a love of money or materialism.

Travis Hawkley
Idealistic...perhaps, but I assure you that if you were to poll every single person in the US, they would want that America. Maybe there would be some dissenters, and we could advocate they move elsewhere.

Lee M Bartholomew
so, how do we convince people that what we have and are proposed to be forced to have is not what we want.

Travis Hawkley
Talking about it is a good start. I can promise that there are people reading this conversation that are not commenting. Just by our talking here we are planting the seeds of liberty. George Washington and other of the founding fathers used to say that the revolution began long before the writing of the Declaration.

Lee M Bartholomew
I only have 70 or so friends on here, let's hope they who read this have the courage to abandon the things they thought they believed in in favor of Freedom.
3 hours ago

Jeff Viola
Satan has his counterfeits for everything. Yes, the desire goal for all of us is to take care of everyone. As a Christian Nation we value this principle. I believe that we are to become one, to unify. We should have all things in common and there shouldn't be divisions. However, Satan is doing this by force (Hum, I think there was a war over this) and it only hardens the hearts of the people. There is no personal growth to this method. Christ would want us to do it by love. We will struggle, some will not do very well, but the personal growth is so invaluable. I think so many people because of their desire to make sure people don't suffer have fallen into the enticements of Satan's plan. I wish we the people understood how inspired our Founding Fathers were and would follow the desires they had for us, but as rebellious children, we think we know better.

Lee M Bartholomew
If anyone wants a translation of that last comment of Jeff's, talk to me, it regards my religious based beliefs and are sacred to me, but I think everyone should learn of them, the world would be a more free place by abiding by those precepts. In short Freedom is our greatest gift and we are here on earth to see how well we live when given freedom. What choices we make. A society which tries to solve all social problems steals the opportunity for people to be good people and creates more problems than it tries to solve.

A R Chase Jr
I'd like to go back to Lee's question about how we get this message out to more people...we can't let this rest upon the chance Facebook encounters, we must take this message (and WOW are you guys GREAT at this) to others, our neighbors, our schools, our churches, our local political leaders, our extended families, our friends (like Chris ;-), wemust stand up and speak out. For those who silently creep back into our corners will suffer the consequences of government takeover of our lives. We must speak our, GET OFF THE FENCE! If you don't like the schools, get involved, attend school board meetings and SAY SOMETHING. Demand accountability from your kids teachers. If you don't like your health care costs, call around and negotiate with your doctors and pharmacists. Attend your local city/village council meetings and speak up about what you believe in!! We can no longer be a silent majority, wake up people!!

A R Chase Jr
Are you willing? Can you handle the criticism from the status quo? Is freedom important enough to motivate you to do something about it??? As for me and my house....we stand for FREEDOM!

Kristen Fifield Bartholomew
I have enjoyed reading all these comments. I applaud you all for your passion about our freedoms and rights. Let's pass this message on, and try to change our lives, and the lives of our children for the better.

*NR said*
Are you guys really all serious about this? The above string reads like something out of a nuthouse. One may or may not like public programs, but come on guys, the above post are completely loco. Get some perspective. And turn off the facebook.

Lee M Bartholomew
It is funny, well no funny is not the right word...predictable.. yes that is it. I have read the "nuthouse" comments which have been spewed from the media as well directed at townhall meetings geared to address the developing social problems of today. Name calling is the latest tactic in a desperate attempt to downplay the patriot movements occurring all around our country in back alleys and chat pages. I do not apologize for any offense that I make. I dont mind being called loco, if that is what my comments above are, because it is what I believe. It is worth dying for for me. I refuse to be quieted by those with more education than me, I am not encumbered with education to the point that I only think what I read. I do not read my ideas, I do not see them in the news and repeat them. I am me. I am American. And I want my children to have every opportunity that my father had, and my grandfather. And not to be burdened under the inefficient load of a government social system.

A R Chase Jr
If what has been posted is loco, so be it. It is what I feel to be true. Nathan, thank you for your opinion. You are always free to give them, as others including myself, are free to vehemently disagree with them. That's truly American.
about an hour ago

Nathan Brockway
We should be scared of any social program that has sweeping national changes. We must remember that the House and Senate are to be the lawmakers. The President is in charge of enforcing the laws. The Supreme Court is to decide the constitutionality of the laws. In none of those responsibilities does healthcare or the no child left behind act fall. They must all be limited to what the constitution says they can do. The government must be limited. If you think I am a nut because I fear what Obama will do than I am a NUT! I am worried when any president or any congress wants to act quickly. That is the first sign of the government hiding something. I want my federal government to act slowly with great thought and debate put into each item that is brought before them. The only government that acts quickly is a dictatorship

Shon M Schmidt
Nathan, What are you doing with your great perspective? I mean outside of facebook of course. You seem to have the same views in your last post as the others you just called loco. I am interested to know how we are to stop the dictatorship from doing what it is doing, if not through talking and networking and frankly becoming a little nuts. You can't stop a dictatorship with a strong grimmace. I really do want to know what good ideas you and others have for us to be heard. We don't have time to sit back and see what happens.

Lee M Bartholomew
I have a great respect for N R. He is very well educated, and well read. He could win at any argument of merit against me, I am not a great debater, or orator. His is a resounding voice heard in the echoes of the great halls of Academia. They are the thoughts born of thousands of years of the human experience. Mine, are of a single purpose, that I am one person, Unique. Only I can determine what is right for me. How I will live, work, love, play, worship, teach, learn and ACT, and reap the rewards or consequences on those actions. This day has been one of passion, and my words and the words of others have found the same resonance, uniquely, without coercion. without prodding or the persecution of the argument from intimidation. We have touched freedom, and know the addictive power of the welfare state. We will not succumb.

Brittany Rodgers
I agree with you Lee. I'm really upset with the turn our country is taking. And NR, I can't believe you said that. "Turn off the facebook". What is this? A dictatorship? You have no right to determine what we all (democrats, independents, liberalists, republicans...whatever) talk about. I can't believe you just said that. Really.

Lee M Bartholomew
I should admit to something before we continue much further..... I became fascinated with the Arts and crafts Movement years ago, and read a couple of books about the British arts and crafts movement which proceeded our own. THis period was fascinating, and the people involved were just as fascinating as the wares they produced. William Morris, and many of the other lead figures in the movement were socialists. I have read their thoughts, and tried to reason and weigh their positions. I understand the draw, the benevolent giver to the begging masses. But this is America, where every man can become great, regardless of anything. Do not shove anything at me that destroys that hope. A hungry hand is best fit around the handle of a farm implement or a factory lever, and not the purse strings of society. I will help feed the hungry. I will clothe them, I will shelter them, and I will help them to learn to help themselves.

Shon M Schmidt
Sorry, I just noticed the 2 Nathans. Nathan B your right on. N R, I would love to hear your suggestions.

Nathan Brockway
I am glad you noticed there are two Nathans commenting on here. I respect N R. and his opinion. We have had many good debates on various political debates. Lee I think you are selling yourself short on your debating abilities. Oh and Kristen can put my name in big bold letters.

*Name withheld for privacy*w what a day it has been. I may have even turned a stone over to keep an open mind. I think we all should keep an open mind. N R- Just what are you doing on facebook then? Your a smart well rounded person and maybe some of your input here would be needed. Please share with us.

A R Chase Jr
Lee/Kristen, please put my name in 72 POINT FONT!!!

Jeralyn Berg Miller
I totally agree with you Lee. Any idea on how we can make ourselves be heard without being cast aside as a "nutcase."

Lee M Bartholomew
I cant sleep, to much thinking today. close with a quote I just read from The Obliteration of Capitalism, where Ayn Rand Closes by quoting a character from her book Atlas Shrugged. seems to be a fitting ending. "Capitalism was the only system in history where wealth was not acquired by looting, but by production, not by force, but by trade, the only system that stood for man's right to his own mind, to his work, to his life, to his happiness, to himself. If this be evil, by the present standards of this world, if this is the reason for damning us, then we--we are the champions of man--accept it and choose to be damned by that world. We choose to wear the name 'Capitalism' printed on our foreheads, proudly, as our badge of nobility. This is what the battle demands, nothing else will do." Goodnight